Hmmm...a lot to respond to this time...sorry I
took so long; I've been busy writing a paper about dostoevsky. To
start off:
-Yes, actually, you
did say same orbit...I checked it out in your first message...check your
sent message folder, and you'll see.
-The big bang is a theory,
a theory is not something tested...it's "a coherent group of general propositions
used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena, or a proposed
explanation whose status is still conjectural." The big bang theory
is an explanation for the creation of the universe...it's not proven yet,
but it's one of the best explanations to fit the evidence.
-The reason that all
matter is not going in the same direction or orbit (or whatever the hell
you want to say) is that the matter was flung out as an explosion...so
there was a lot of matter coming out from a central point...this was loose matter until it
started to clump (since matter has mass, and mass has gravity, the tendency
is to clump), and it was only after the matter started to accumulate that
the forces acting on it created orbits or directions. The beginning
of the universe had matter on all sides of it, and pulling in all different
directions, and in each case the stronger forces would decide the direction,
some going one way, some going another.
-"If the Universe is eternal
why can't God be?" He could very well be, but he doesn't have to
be...I was using that example the other way around. At some point, you
have to claim that something came first, or that something is eternal. Claiming the
universe is eternal or came first clears up a lot of unnecessary metaphysical
explanation that muddies up the theories and creates more problems than
it solved.
-"What is the purpose of the
universe being eternal?" Well, my explanation is that there is none.
There need be no explanation to life. Explanations come when you
try to understand something, and there's nothing that guarantees that the universe needs
to be understood. The universe just is. The reason I understand
it to be eternal is because that's what makes sense to me. I can't
understand a world without time, which would have to exist before the universe
came into existence. What seems to explain it the best to me is that
the universe goes through an eternal expansion and contraction...it doesn't
give meaning to the world; I have to do that.
-"What created the Big Bang
theory?" Well, a man created it as the best explanation he could
think up, and others agreed, which is why it contines to be one of our
best explanations on how the universe [was] mechanically created... It doesn't necessarily
rule out the existence of God; some scientists believe that it just explains
how God did it. That seems immaterial to me. But if you were
asking what created the Big Bang (not the theory, the answer is "nothing".
It happened according to the very precise, but not intelligently created
laws of nature. Gravity, thermodynamics, newtonian and einsteinian
physics, etc. Those are the forces that interacted to create the big bang,
and the universe that followed it.
-Nietzsche had a disease that
caused insanity, and he indeed did go insane, but that does not rule out
anything he said before he went insane. If Albert Einstein had come down
with Alzheimers, would that have invalidated the theory of relativity? Hell
no! If someone is sick or drunk, it does not invalidate anything
they do while sober or healthy.
-I'm not saying that God is
more complex than the big bang theory. The big bang theory is infinitely
complex when you get down to it, because it's dealing with a near infinite
amount of matter and energy. But it requires very little leaps of
faith, and requires no new questions to be asked afterwards. It says
the universe came into being this way. With God, you say God did
this, and it has the extra questions of "why?" "What did he intend us to
do?" "How do I live my life with this divine creator of everything."
In that sense, the divine creation is more complex than the big bang because
it opens up extra doors and requires extra leaps. Occam's Razor doesn't deal with
the "complexity" of an answer so much as it deals with leaps of logic,
or, as another person who responded to the AICN conversation said to me,
"Occam's Razor states that when you are presented with two possibleexplanations
for a phenomenon, choose the option the requires you to acceptfewer or
less outrageous implausibilities."
-I am definitely an
atheist. I am an agnostic when it comes to creation, in that I'm
smart enough to realize that I can't possibly comprehend the creation of
the universe or the "purpose" of creation, but I am an atheist in that
I do NOT believe in God. Agnostisicm is saying "I don't know", but
as an atheist I have no belief in God...I am fairly knowledgable about
Christianity, because my dad is a pastor, and I was a Lutheran until I
was 15. I went to a lutheran high school, and I am now going to a
lutheran university.
-I personally have no
idea what's going on when we die. But a hallucination caused by lack
of oxygen to the brain seems most likely. I don't think it's anything
conscious...I think the situation has the same effect on people, no matter who they are or where
they're from...just like drinking alcohol or having sex effects people
in pretty much the same way wherever they are from. I don't believe
in clarivoyance or telepathy; but even if I did, they still do not prove
the existence of God or anything like that. The only thing the existence
of clarivoyance would prove is the existence of clarivoyance.
-You need help in your
use of Occam's Razor still. Occam's razor does not say that "snce
90% of the people in this country are Christians (or claim to be) that
90% of the people discussing the argument on the board are Christians". The way Occam's
Razor would deal with that is to state your data. "90% of the people
in this country are Christian" (a fact which is blatanly wrong...90% of
people believe in a god, perhaps)." "But 90% on this website are
not Christian." Some likely explanations would be that people more
likely to post are youths, who are in a period of rejecting God, or that
atheists and agnostics are more likely to post in a topic about religion,
because while Christians may be lazy and inactive when it comes to their
faith, most atheists have consciously rejected God." The easiest
explanation is that this website is not an accurate representation of the
entire United States. Occam's Razor is a tool, saying that the explanations
that are supported with the easiest information, that requires the fewest
leaps, is probably true. Taking your statement again, Occam's razor states that
the most plausible explanation is most likely to be true but that is not always the case it
is plausible that snce 90% of the people in this country are Christians(
or claim to be) that 90% of the people discussing the argument on the board
are Christians", Occam's Razor would quite simply say, "Your data is incorrect."
That's the easiest explanation that requires the least amount of implausibilities.
-KNBC may do a show
about Noah's Ark, but that doesn't mean it's true..."the liberal media"
often times stretches things for ratings. Please send me an archeoligical
dig, describing the process used, and the methods for explanation, and then we can talk
about whether it's true or not. From what I've read (I read an entire
book about this), the Ark is completely impossible. How did they
get the animals aboard two by two...how were all of them saved. The boat
wasn't big enough for even a decent sized zoo (all the measurements are
in the Bible: Genesis 6:15). Animals such as the Amazonian animals
would never be put on the boat, since Noah would never be able to go over
there and pick them up. There's not enough water to flood the entire
earth (forget what you saw in "Waterworld".) There's no signs of
the tremendous flash flooding that must have occurred from 40 nights of
rain (which wouldnt' be enough to cover up the world anyway). Flash
flooding leaves very distinct marks, that differ from regular flooding
(I know, I've been in a flash flood before). Don't point to other
cultures, like The Epic of Gilgamesh, which also has records of an apocoplytic
flood. The most likely explanation for that is that early civilizations
started around rivers, which flooded, causing massive problems, so a common
fear among most civilizations is of a massive flood that could completely
wipe them out.
-The existence of "40 of the
Bible's kings" do not prove the existence of a God, and do not prove that
said God helped them or punished them in any case.
-An eclipse of the sun does
not prove that a savior died on that day. It happens all the time.
What it could mean is that a writer knew about the eclipse, and wrote that
into their "gospel" as evidence. Or it could just be a coincidence. An eclipse
of the sun happens about once every two or three years. And if the
eclipse of the sun was in 33AD, well, that screws up your calculations.
The Bible has Jesus starting his preachings in his thirtieth year, and dying 3
years later (in Matthew, Mark, and Luke), and one year later (in John).
Well, the most likely time for Christ's birth is sometime between 4-6BC,
which makes your eclipse just another eclipse.
-Please explain what the hell
this means: "The book of Daniel gives a prophecy of a messiah and an exact
date (69 weeks from the book of Joshua's writingor 69 year weeks in the
Jewish religion which lasted 7 years give me a day and i'll give you a better
explanation of it)." It's completely incoherent.
-The dead sea scrolls are
simply the oldest found copies of the Pentateuch. Show me something
that says anything about the Gospel, then we can talk. I can't just
accept "I heard this", I need hard third party evidence before I can believe you...that's part
of what atheism (and rationalism) is; looking into it isntead of just accepting
what an authoritative voice tells you.
-Give me scriptural
quotes that tell about the Euro. "ten nations shall have the same
currency"...well, more than ten nations have it...prophecy has to be precise...it
says what happens...anything else can just be coincidence.
-"The tower of Babylon"?
Do you mean the Tower of Babel? Or is this something else you're
talking about? Explain this some more. And tell me why it proves
anything. Just because the Bible mentions the name of a city or a
building does not mean that it's true. Greek myth wrote of real places,
such as Athens and Mount Olympus, but that does not prove that Zeus and
Hera and everyone else truly exists.
-Genesis does not say
that life began in Africa, it says it began in the middle east, in Iraq.
This much is for the most part true...but life also started up in Africa
(as you said), and the Yellow River area in China...does this prove Chinese
or African religion true? If I have a text that talks about our great
god "Barney" or something, and the text mentions that the first settlement
in America was at Jamestown, this does not prove that "Barney" is our God. If
one part of an argument is true, it does not prove the rest of the argument
true or not. You are only as strong as your weakest link.
-Please send me the
LA Times article about Moses...all of this is conjecture, and still does
not prove that God did anything. There is no record in Egyptian history
(and the Egyptians kept records of a helluva lot) of the death of every first born, or the
death of pharoah chasing jewish slaves...that would be something worth
recording, and there's nothing on it. "many Jewish bones were found
in Egypt receantly"...how do they know they're Jewish, may I ask? Did
they see circumsision scars on the bones or what?
-Tier...I need any evidence
on it...any at all. I can't find any in the encyclopedias or news
archives. And still, whether it's a real city or not does not prove
God's existence.
-Even the existence of Jesus
does not prove God's existence...it just proves that there was a man named
Jesus who walked around for awhile and was crucified for claiming he was
God's son.
-The British Empire
fell not because they refused to help the Jews, the British Empire fell
because they spread themselves too thin. They were horribly weakened
by World War two, and had already lost most of their foreign holdings before the nation of Israel
came into being in 1948. Britain had fallen apart by 1945, the end
of WW2. They lost India because they had to pull out a lot of their
forces during the war, they lost Hong Kong because they only had a 99 year
lease on it, and the lease expired. They lost african holdings because
the Nazis took them over. They lost their holdings for very real
reasons, not from metaphysical "oops we pissed off God" reasons.
America, on the other hand, is doing well not because they helped out Israel,
but because we have lots of natural resources, and we managed to rebuild
our economy in the depression, partly because of WW2. We were back
to being a booming economy by the end of the war...that's why we gave out
so much money for Europe's rebuilding...this was before the foundation
of Israel. The US's economy healed for very real reasons as well,
not because of "yay we helped out God" reasons. We weren't "lifted
to great heights", we pulled ourselves up there.
-No, you're not using
logic now.
There you go...now respond to everything.
Tell me whether I'm full of shit or not, and then explain to me, USING
LOGIC AND BACKING IT UP, why I'm right or wrong. If you can't respond
to what I've said, then shut up!
The tower of Babel was mentioned in the Bible
despite the fact that carbon dating and manuscript evidence state that
the book of Genesis was written two thousand years or so after the fall
of Babylon.
Yes they did find circumsicion scars and also
the fact that there were no pork bones despite the fact that pork was the
most aboundent food source in that aria at the time and also the size and
shapes of their forheads also showed eviedence of them being Jewish I do
not save newspapers but you can call the L.A times for a copy
Tiar not Tier if I am correct was a rather large
middle eastern country
Genesis in the Hebrew Bible not our mistranslated
English ones say's Epiopia was where Eden was located (Africa at the time
of translation was refered to as Epiopia
You were a Lutherin well according to the boojk
of Roman a church namesd after a person is not a Christian church.
The majority of pschologists I have met do indeed
belive in telepathy as there is mutch evidence to support it. I do not
myself. Telepathy is not what I was arguing resurrection was. Lack of oxygen
flowing to the Brain? Bad argument my mother was declared brain dead
yet she still had that experience you never tried to explain how she knew
who jumped me or that I was jumped. You never explained how people have
learned languages that they have never heard before.
You also contradicted yourself as you say you
read a book on Noah's arc but you than say you do not accept someone told
me as evidence well my friend I will tell you how Noah's arc worked Psalms
stated that Gods scale is 360000 times ours so therefore since God was
instructing Noah on building it it was 360000 times larger than a human
Cubit which would be the size of country.Also how do you know anmails were
the same size than? Genises was in God's time a thousand years is a day
in the first chapters of Genises
The Bible also state in psalms that God is indead
Eternal Daniels Prophecy says 70 weeks passed an order to rebuild Jerusalaum
including the temples was given the M essiah should return. There were
two types of weeks in the Jewish Religion one was seven days the other
was Seven years the seventh being a time of forgiveness. On the 69
week the Messiah was cruxified. the seventyth was in Eternal times
which can be a day or a billion years.The only order to rebuild in Jerusalum
including the temple was in Joshua if you dictate the time of the oder
and multiply the years out Subtracting the five days a year that the Jewish
calendar was missing you come up with... 33AD The "13 year"
was the 13th year after Christ's Baptisim. A Christians life
is not considered to start until he publicaly
says there is a God through Baptism or Church.
The historians of 33AD wrote of Jesus being
sacreficed in that year. Jesus was born in 6 AD he was not cruxified until
33AD
Pontius Pilate was in Isreal in the third Decade
AD not before my father was a history major and any Encyclopedia tells
you that.
As for Occam's razor I do not belive in it and
until you show me evidence of it excisting I won't. What is plausible?
What isn't? The majority of scientists do belive in E.T.'S but they most
violate Einstein's law of relativaty to travel fast enougth to reach here.
Relativaty? Don't belive in it completly either only a few principles of
it.
And since you cannot prove those any true any
easier than I can prove God is true they are irrelevant. I do not belive
all the mass in an object is the exact eqazation Einstein stated I belive
it is more. I do not Belive time has anything to do ith speed of light.
I do belive space curves however but that is just as improvable.
Occam's Razor prove it to me. I don't belive
in it. What seems plausible may not be so therefore there is a hole in
it. You are trying to prove Philosphy wrong with Philosphy. It does not
work as I do not belivei n Christianty as a philosiphy but as history.
Nothing you have said has proven anything except
that you are agnostic and not an atheist. You belive a God may have created
the Universe if he did could he not have guided it? All powerful is all
powerful. If there is a case for one there is a case for both. I
do not belive that Christian (not religious I am not a Babtist, Lutherian, Jehovah witness or any other illogical
denomination nor do I belive in pastors as being wise men or as being inrfallible
but only in the Bible a person who never goes to church may know more of
the Bible than one who lives a church)
also if there is no God how do we
have a sense of right or wrong? there are certain things that are considered
wrong in all countries and all ethnicities. How is that? If I lie and only
lie and every man on earth knows than the ones I lie to feel I am doibg
wrong. But without one to decide it how do WE decide what is right or wrong?
So now that I have proven your historical and
religios argumets along with your Damned Razor wrong there is not a one
of your arguments that is vallid but one: The argument of a human growth
being something that groes from simple to complex. That is ludiocris as
we have been trying to crack the DNA code for decades yet are only now
are coming close to it a single cell being simple? LOL!
God does not throw dice-Albert Einstein when
asked to explain how the universe could be able to allow the coincedences
to exist to support life.
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